ano ba yang power factor na yan ?

[zer0w1ng]

yung capacitor(na nabangit) katumbas ba nung filter capacitor sa dc(rectified)?

No.
This is to cancel the inductance of the load.
If XL = XC at 60Hz, the load becomes resistive and PFC will be 1.

[Anna]

simply put... its a measure on how efficient you deliver power to the load.

[Rnold724]

team, this will give you some answers, with circuit. try to read on power factor and power factor correction.
http://falstad.com/circuit/e-powerfactor2.html

[bravokilo]

Hi friends, maganda yan topic na power factor, minus the latter part. May I add a little more but more on what it is for the lay man.

In carriers like airplanes, they use the term "load factor" which is simply the number of occupied seats divided by the capacity in seats.So, ano available at ano ginamit.  Sa power generation, gingamit din itong term.  When a genset is run, a capacity is generated but they are not all used. The trick is how to save the unused energy to be sold later(not practical actually like charging batteries to use the unused capacity). mas lalo na sa airplane, di na ma saved to be used later.

In my province years ago, the voltage dropped to 180 volts in the evening and our flourescent light will   not start.  I remember, we took them to the electrical store to make them "high power". and what it was, was an installation of low microfrad but high voltage capacitor, AC type. this is quite different from the DC capacitors for filtering ripples in a DC P.S. When i think of what it was doing, I realized that when the starter flicks, it draws current and when off,   the current used was dropped. that is when the capacitor gets charged up and in the next flicker, bang, the energy is released.

Let's perhaps say that an equiptment does not really use energy uniformly and so waste is introduced. |A capacitor picks up the unused energy and supply it at the next need.  Come to think of it, that is what the filter cap is doing in a DC supply. When energy is high, it stores it and when low, it compensates.  I used to explain that the filter capacitor is like the water tank.  When there is water,it stores and when when  there is none, it supplies.  Is the power saver effective, like the one sold at ACE? Yes.  In industrial plants where they use lots of motors, a huge bank of capacitors is used to correct the power factor or I should say increase it. The proof is in the pudding. Use an AC current clamp meter to check. Ideal is a PF of unity or 1.

I used "energy" instead of volts and amps to keep it general.

Hope this can be appreciated.


BK/09197726274

[robbietan]

Hi friends, maganda yan topic na power factor, minus the latter part. May I add a little more but more on what it is for the lay man.

In carriers like airplanes, they use the term "load factor" which is simply the number of occupied seats divided by the capacity in seats.So, ano available at ano ginamit.  Sa power generation, gingamit din itong term.  When a genset is run, a capacity is generated but they are not all used. The trick is how to save the unused energy to be sold later(not practical actually like charging batteries to use the unused capacity). mas lalo na sa airplane, di na ma saved to be used later.

In my province years ago, the voltage dropped to 180 volts in the evening and our flourescent light will   not start.  I remember, we took them to the electrical store to make them "high power". and what it was, was an installation of low microfrad but high voltage capacitor, AC type. this is quite different from the DC capacitors for filtering ripples in a DC P.S. When i think of what it was doing, I realized that when the starter flicks, it draws current and when off,   the current used was dropped. that is when the capacitor gets charged up and in the next flicker, bang, the energy is released.

Let's perhaps say that an equiptment does not really use energy uniformly and so waste is introduced. |A capacitor picks up the unused energy and supply it at the next need.  Come to think of it, that is what the filter cap is doing in a DC supply. When energy is high, it stores it and when low, it compensates.  I used to explain that the filter capacitor is like the water tank.  When there is water,it stores and when when  there is none, it supplies.  Is the power saver effective, like the one sold at ACE? Yes.  In industrial plants where they use lots of motors, a huge bank of capacitors is used to correct the power factor or I should say increase it. The proof is in the pudding. Use an AC current clamp meter to check. Ideal is a PF of unity or 1.

I used "energy" instead of volts and amps to keep it general.

Hope this can be appreciated.


BK/09197726274

I am sorry, the power "saver" in ace (or any similar device) does NOT save power. On the contrary, it consumes power just like any ordinary load. there are only two things in this world - generators and loads. if you are not one, you are the other.

capacitors "stores" energy, not generate them. and since this is an imperfect world, the energy a capacitor "stores" is less than the energy it releases. it cannot make energy, so it is a load.

if this is true, then all I have to do is build a small generating plant and then use a lot of capacitors to increase my power supply capacity. this doesnt happen, capacitors are stung over transmission lines to impove voltage and supply kVARs to users. does installing a capacitor lower a motor's kVAR consumption? yes it does. can a capacitor lower the kW consumption of a motor? no it CANNOT.

[TinTopHack]

I agree with Robbie Tan.

Please check this link for more explanation why a residential user will not really save any money using PFC's or PFC-based energy saving devices sold today.
http://energystar.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/energystar.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=4941&p_created=1204908170

[bravokilo]

hi friends, there are several articles in the web explaining power factor and many industrial plants here in Manila utilizes huge capacitor banks to correct or improve the power factor. I agree with your explanation that capacitors do not generate power but it does store unused power and kick it in on demand.  The filter capacitor in dc power supply is a fine example where it stores power and puts it out when there is a slack.

I did not mean to imply at all in my post that capacitors generate power. Certainly not , in as much that a water tank does not produce water but if water comes midnight, it stores it and next morning, there is water for the shower.

Tell you what, the more I read about the power factor thing, the more I wish a better electric meter be invented because it seems that plants do not really use all the energy read by the meter.

Maybe I shouldn't have mention about the one sold in Ace. But it is interesting to note that the clamp meter actually dropped its reading. The only way that I think for the benefit not to be true, is if the Meralco meter is a bit different than a clamp meter. One has to be wrong.  I worked for the Meralco group for many years but that does not make me an expert.  I have no intention to argue with you guys. I posted something after reading questions like what is really this power factor thing and that is the reason why I simplified it. After all this section is meant for nubies. Thanks for the comments on my post!

BK

[TinTopHack]

BK - Cheers!

I think "argue" is not really the proper word to describe what we all are doing. In my view all of us are sharing information and by doing so we all learn. Sometimes we are surprised that the info we thought to be correct is wrong according to some people. Sometimes it is the other way around. In other words we agree or disagree depending on what we see. It is nice to know that you are simply taking it in stride. I think all of us should do so. Nobody can really claim to be an undisputed expert. Even Einstein needed help to prove that his theory of relativity is correct. So just keep posting ideas here. We will all test and validate these ideas and learn in the process of doing so.

You are correct about capacitors storing energy temporarily and discharging them when necessary.
You are also correct about the ammeter reading dropping when you saw the tests at Ace. What the maker of the power saving device is not telling us the buyer is this -

Meralco is charging us for KWhour consumption NOT KVAhour consumption -which are 2 different things.
We are not charged for current consumption alone. Instead we are charge for energy consumption which is KWH.
The problem us measuring or calculating KWH is not easy if current and voltage are not in phase.

What we see in the Ace demo is just the current changing in value. We do not know its phase relationship with the voltage. Unless we do so we can not really say if we are saving some energy (kWH) or not. In fact it is strange that in the Ace demo they do not just use a KWH meter which is actually cheaper than a digital ammeter and a digital voltmeter. It would be more convincing to see the KWH meter showing the differences in energy consumption with and without the energy saving device.
 

[bravokilo]

That is why I said I dont mean to argue because I could be wrong and was just discussing observable facts.  And in my layman's language, I implied that there must be a difference in the Maralco meter and the calmp meter. Thanks for the explanation although it leaves me wondering why the plant where my friend worked as the manager used a huge bank of capacitors.  I understand about the current and voltage timing at may nakapost sa kabila about inductors and capacitors reversing which leads etc..this is precisely why caps are used daw to correct and to lower the reading.  Anyway, lets scrap the ACE thing. I never bought one anyway. Maraming links sa power factor topic.  I printed many of them which discussed that the reading can be lowered unless our Meralco is using something else these guys are talk
ing about. I am taking things in stride Pre. I am almost a senior citizen and i also posts in many other forums like  RCPhilippines, RCTech etc..and many times I change the word I use because maka akala pikon na tayo. We all just get intellectually challenged to reply to some points.

Tuloy lang tayo.

BK

[TinTopHack]

Pre,

Regarding the cap bank sa planta ng kaibigan mo - kelangan yan because industrial users (unlike residential users) are charge differently by power companies. I do not exactly know how the charges are computed but the power factor is taken into account. So by lowering the power factor by using cap banks, they reduce their electric bills.
 

[miGs]

may penalty sa mga industrial consumers for low power factor, kaya naglalagay ng capacitor banks to correct the power factor, to get bonus.

industrial consumers have many motor loads, which are inductive loads, kaya bumababa ang power factor. but just the same, industries are charges also in the Energy they consumed, in kWh, aside from other charges, including the power factor.

[TinTopHack]

may penalty sa mga industrial consumers for low power factor, kaya naglalagay ng capacitor banks to correct the power factor, to get bonus.

industrial consumers have many motor loads, which are inductive loads, kaya bumababa ang power factor. but just the same, industries are charges also in the Energy they consumed, in kWh, aside from other charges, including the power factor.

miGs, Thanks for the clarification.

[be_he_he]

does this means na to immprove powerfactor, a decoupling capacitor is needed? halimbawa, O connect an 30W electric fan, instead na naka-plug directly sa ac socket, maglalagay ako ng 100microfarad 400v para ma-correct yung powerfactor? papano na nacocompute yung value ng capacitor?

[kinyo]

The ACE hardware "saver" demo, where clampmeter shows significant drop, works because it is using highly inductive loads, i.e. unloaded motor or ballasted fluorescent lamp. Adding capacitor to those circuits will reduce the reactive current, hence improve power factor, and the AC current drops.

With or without the capacitor, the real power will be the same, so there will be no savings. This is the reason why an AC ammeter is used, instead of a real digital wattmeter. A wattmeter will show that there is no significant change.

In a residential environment, a capacitor will not matter. In industrial field and power distribution, the capacitor matters a lot.

 

[SilverSolar]

Tip lang sa Demo sa ACE,
E ON ang ilaw, lalabas ang clamp ammeter reading.
Isaksak ang energy saver (capacitor), bumaba ang ammeter reading.
Patayin ang ilaw, pero wag tanggalin ang energy saver. Huh... bakit mas mataas ang current? E pinatay na nga ang ilaw.
Eh, naging load ang energy saver. Nakakasave ba talaga? E di ikabit ang energy saver sabay sa ilaw, para disconnected na rin ang energy saver kapag naka off ang ilaw.
Ammeter reading x voltage = Volt Ampere (hindi watts)
Maaring bumaba ang current reading, pero yung watts hindi bumaba.
Pinakaeffective pa rin na energy saving tool ay switch, e switch off mo ilaw mo at matulog ng maaga, tapos.

[be_he_he]

heto na lang gamitin nyo para maka-save kayo energy consumption: http://accounting.zouze.com/?p=76

[SilverSolar]

EiBox .... parang mabantot ang pangalan.. heheheh... comment lang ha.. nothing serious.

[be_he_he]

well, ikaw may alam ng word na yan kaya sa sarili mo siguro naransan yan...hehe

[robbietan]

...Tell you what, the more I read about the power factor thing, the more I wish a better electric meter be invented because it seems that plants do not really use all the energy read by the meter.

Maybe I shouldn't have mention about the one sold in Ace. But it is interesting to note that the clamp meter actually dropped its reading. The only way that I think for the benefit not to be true, is if the Meralco meter is a bit different than a clamp meter. One has to be wrong.  I worked for the Meralco group for many years but that does not make me an expert.  I have no intention to argue with you guys. I posted something after reading questions like what is really this power factor thing and that is the reason why I simplified it. After all this section is meant for nubies. Thanks for the comments on my post!

BK

on the contrary, electric meters installed in plants and homes (called revenue meters) have one of the most stringent accuracy standards there is. something like 99.98% accuracy before a meter can be a "revenue" meter. you are right when you say plants do not use all the electricity read by their meters. a miniscule portion goes to "systems loss" inside the plant - power lost when electricity flows thru the conductors inside the plant. then there is the power wasted on some motor blowers and pumps. the installation of adjustable speed drives (asd, vsd, vfd) to certain pumps and blowers can help save power (hence they are true "energy saving devices") by limiting the amount of power used by the pump and blower motors.

the clamp used in those "energy saving" setups is not even a true rms meter, hence there are questions on its accuracy. however, to be proper, those guys should install kW meters for their demos. then its a matter of showing how much power (not amps) is consumed with and without their gizmo. after all, we are billed for kW-hr consumption.

[ian23jess]

for example sa UPS na 500kva (apparent power) with output loads of 400kw (real power) so 400/500 = .08 (eto ung power factor mo) ginagamit ang power factor para maka save ng power or saving energy baga? halos walang nasasayang. walang pinagkaiba yan sa taong naligo sa shower kumpara sa timba which is (power factor) he he hehehe.... naka save k ng tubig.