Electronics Lab Philippines

Clean out grounding design

Offline tony

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2014, 11:42:58 AM »
yes.....during commissioning of the grounding system,
both the dirty earth and instrument earths are tested for
continuity and insulation from one another,
we have to show the owners that the two systems are
distinctly separate.....
only then can we terminate the earths onto the ground pits...
* you simulate a circuit because you know how it works and wants to tweak, not because you want to learn how that circuit works....simulations do not teach you to be circuit smart...it comes with experience....
*http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/191730-tonys-latest-traffo-diy-build-15.html#post4375385
*do not judge any amp by its schematics, drawing lang yon, look instead at the finished amp, it tells a lot about the amp and its builder.....
http://ronelex.com/bias-current-output-transistor-amplifier/156

Offline robbietan

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2014, 09:39:00 AM »
How??

As far as I know in industry and facility design the data grounding and electrical grounding are separate, considering minimum distances to each other to prevent noise interference and harmonics.

they are separate with separate ground rods. however both are bonded at the transformer secondary to prevent uneven potential. with uneven potential, current tends to flow from the bigger potential and thus "ground loops"
apqi.ph

Offline robbietan

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2014, 10:07:16 AM »
apqi.ph

Offline tony

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2014, 12:09:24 PM »
ground loops are created when there is a potential difference between two "ground points"
the rule being, a ground is zero volts....when this rule is violated, then you have ground loops...

there are design steps that can be taken, there are construction practices that avoids this...

if you work overeseas in an Oil and Gas refinery projects, then these things will be very clear to you....
* you simulate a circuit because you know how it works and wants to tweak, not because you want to learn how that circuit works....simulations do not teach you to be circuit smart...it comes with experience....
*http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/191730-tonys-latest-traffo-diy-build-15.html#post4375385
*do not judge any amp by its schematics, drawing lang yon, look instead at the finished amp, it tells a lot about the amp and its builder.....
http://ronelex.com/bias-current-output-transistor-amplifier/156

Offline @badoy

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2014, 08:39:36 AM »
they are separate with separate ground rods. however both are bonded at the transformer secondary to prevent uneven potential. with uneven potential, current tends to flow from the bigger potential and thus "ground loops"
ahh maybe that is the last resort to eliminate ground loops.....I guess if you get an uneven potential between two grounding pits maybe there is something wrong with the installation process, faulty workmanship and design systems.

AFAIK most of data centers & R&D facility here in Philippines don't accept these kind of grounding methodology. They requires separate grounding both for electrical and data. The two grounding pits were separated away each other with certain minimum distances.

Offline robbietan

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2014, 10:32:53 AM »
ahh maybe that is the last resort to eliminate ground loops.....I guess if you get an uneven potential between two grounding pits maybe there is something wrong with the installation process, faulty workmanship and design systems.

AFAIK most of data centers & R&D facility here in Philippines don't accept these kind of grounding methodology. They requires separate grounding both for electrical and data. The two grounding pits were separated away each other with certain minimum distances.

kaya maraming nagpupunta sa amin kase ung mga workers ng electronics assempbly ei nakukuryente sa mga wrist straps nila. ayaw kase nilang i-bond ang data at electrical grounding
apqi.ph

Offline >>>^żżż^<<<

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2014, 10:37:27 AM »
Hehehe nagugulo dahil sa grounding.

Paano yung nagiging loose connection? Ano mangyayari?
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Offline Super zHero

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2014, 10:54:51 AM »
PLDT contractors, hindi na nagbabaon ng GND.  Umaasa na lang daw sila sa GND ng Meralco  ???

Offline tony

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2014, 11:12:47 AM »
Hehehe nagugulo dahil sa grounding.

Paano yung nagiging loose connection? Ano mangyayari?


ibang issue yan...
ducter testing after torquing bolts and nuts on the copper busses are done to ensure low contact resistance...
https://www.google.com.ph/search?q=ducter+testing&oq=ducter+testing&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

needless to say, loose bolts can cause fires, this happened to our low voltage vault room,
a dry type transformer ha a loose bolt...the fire that ensued, kept us awake for 72 hours
straight trying to repair the damage and restore operation...

our american boss was happy and he gave each one of us involved in the repair work a fat envelop...;)
* you simulate a circuit because you know how it works and wants to tweak, not because you want to learn how that circuit works....simulations do not teach you to be circuit smart...it comes with experience....
*http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/191730-tonys-latest-traffo-diy-build-15.html#post4375385
*do not judge any amp by its schematics, drawing lang yon, look instead at the finished amp, it tells a lot about the amp and its builder.....
http://ronelex.com/bias-current-output-transistor-amplifier/156

Offline >>>^żżż^<<<

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2014, 11:29:34 AM »
Sa single phase line multiground kapag nagloose ang return wire nabibigyan kami ng jolt(commonly bare in the provinces). At karaniwan din nakaearth ground . 
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=52236.0 TF?
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=41860 ? ? ? DIY traffo Test Build Uli
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=33717  I2c / spi programmer
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=37150.0 Lcr esr makikigulo rin ba kayo ??? Test Build
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=29963.0 Esr collection na malamig
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=25854.0 Basic C++ Programming Tutorials by Prof Asimo
We only live once,treasure those we love, make friends not enemies and keep our family closer. And we will be at peace.
FISH

Offline tony

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2014, 11:32:01 AM »
kaya maraming nagpupunta sa amin kase ung mga workers ng electronics assempbly ei nakukuryente sa mga wrist straps nila. ayaw kase nilang i-bond ang data at electrical grounding

wrist straps must connect to electrical earth as it is a safety issue....
again, unless i see the original design and looked at how it was implemented, then i will just be speculating...
* you simulate a circuit because you know how it works and wants to tweak, not because you want to learn how that circuit works....simulations do not teach you to be circuit smart...it comes with experience....
*http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/191730-tonys-latest-traffo-diy-build-15.html#post4375385
*do not judge any amp by its schematics, drawing lang yon, look instead at the finished amp, it tells a lot about the amp and its builder.....
http://ronelex.com/bias-current-output-transistor-amplifier/156

Offline >>>^żżż^<<<

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2014, 11:39:19 AM »
Is it same sir tony sa nabanggit ko sa last post ko kanina?
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=52236.0 TF?
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=41860 ? ? ? DIY traffo Test Build Uli
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=33717  I2c / spi programmer
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=37150.0 Lcr esr makikigulo rin ba kayo ??? Test Build
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=29963.0 Esr collection na malamig
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=25854.0 Basic C++ Programming Tutorials by Prof Asimo
We only live once,treasure those we love, make friends not enemies and keep our family closer. And we will be at peace.
FISH

Offline tony

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2014, 11:39:21 AM »
Sa single phase line multiground kapag nagloose ang return wire nabibigyan kami ng jolt(commonly bare in the provinces). At karaniwan din nakaearth ground . 

Is it same sir tony sa nabanggit ko sa last post ko kanina?

maybe you mean neutral return wires....
a ground wire is different from a neutral wire...

in a 3 phase system using the Y configuration,
the neutral is supposed to be zero volts, but in reality it can be something else...
that is why the neutral is earthed at the transformer side, so as to prevent roving neutral....
neutral and earthing must never be confused with one another...
* you simulate a circuit because you know how it works and wants to tweak, not because you want to learn how that circuit works....simulations do not teach you to be circuit smart...it comes with experience....
*http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/191730-tonys-latest-traffo-diy-build-15.html#post4375385
*do not judge any amp by its schematics, drawing lang yon, look instead at the finished amp, it tells a lot about the amp and its builder.....
http://ronelex.com/bias-current-output-transistor-amplifier/156

Offline >>>^żżż^<<<

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2014, 11:52:39 AM »
Ang alam ko lang kasi ay three phase with extra wire bare and commonly have the wire running down from the post to the ground rod. Hindi ko alam kung ano termination nila sa high side neto. 13.2kv.

So sa primary ng transformer yung hot side ay nakakabit sa isang phase line tapos the other is connected to the 4th wire that is the bared wired with wire running down a ground rod sa lupa.
Then sa secondary yung isang tap is 220Vac potential tapos yung isang terminal ay nakakabit sa 4th wire and also as return terminal sa 220-0 supply. Once magloose yung return wire nakakakuryente na yung return wire minsan that is usually a bare aluminum wire.
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=52236.0 TF?
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=41860 ? ? ? DIY traffo Test Build Uli
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=33717  I2c / spi programmer
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=37150.0 Lcr esr makikigulo rin ba kayo ??? Test Build
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=29963.0 Esr collection na malamig
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=25854.0 Basic C++ Programming Tutorials by Prof Asimo
We only live once,treasure those we love, make friends not enemies and keep our family closer. And we will be at peace.
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Offline tony

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2014, 12:03:53 PM »
panisnin mo, merong ground runner yan...
* you simulate a circuit because you know how it works and wants to tweak, not because you want to learn how that circuit works....simulations do not teach you to be circuit smart...it comes with experience....
*http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/191730-tonys-latest-traffo-diy-build-15.html#post4375385
*do not judge any amp by its schematics, drawing lang yon, look instead at the finished amp, it tells a lot about the amp and its builder.....
http://ronelex.com/bias-current-output-transistor-amplifier/156

Offline >>>^żżż^<<<

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2014, 12:14:16 PM »
Ang common point dito sir tony is yung 4th wire ng high side, return wire ng secondary ay nakakonek rin sa ground rod katabi ng mga poste. So once magloose yung return wire sa entrada kapag hinawakan mo eh nangingiliti minsan which is usually a bare aluminum wire.
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=52236.0 TF?
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=41860 ? ? ? DIY traffo Test Build Uli
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=33717  I2c / spi programmer
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=37150.0 Lcr esr makikigulo rin ba kayo ??? Test Build
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=29963.0 Esr collection na malamig
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=25854.0 Basic C++ Programming Tutorials by Prof Asimo
We only live once,treasure those we love, make friends not enemies and keep our family closer. And we will be at peace.
FISH

Offline tony

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2014, 12:19:39 PM »
TBH, i am not too familiar with our local electrical codes...
but i had a good number of years working overseas as construction boy,
later on as QC engineer is Russia...
i am familiar with the Shell Standards, and the DEP....
* you simulate a circuit because you know how it works and wants to tweak, not because you want to learn how that circuit works....simulations do not teach you to be circuit smart...it comes with experience....
*http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/191730-tonys-latest-traffo-diy-build-15.html#post4375385
*do not judge any amp by its schematics, drawing lang yon, look instead at the finished amp, it tells a lot about the amp and its builder.....
http://ronelex.com/bias-current-output-transistor-amplifier/156

Offline >>>^żżż^<<<

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2014, 12:32:09 PM »
Minsan nga nakakalito. Lalo na't learning process pa rin ako. Iba rin sa 3 phase. Karaniwan ko nakikita is y-delta configuration where yung second terminal ng connection ng primary ay connected sa tatlong traffo bank then to traffo body and earth rod. Then sa secondary ay delta connection with three leads out lang walang ng neutral wire.

Meron din akong nakikitang parallel connection tapos ang metering ay 3 wire out, 1 wire is common.
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=52236.0 TF?
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=41860 ? ? ? DIY traffo Test Build Uli
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=33717  I2c / spi programmer
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=37150.0 Lcr esr makikigulo rin ba kayo ??? Test Build
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=29963.0 Esr collection na malamig
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=25854.0 Basic C++ Programming Tutorials by Prof Asimo
We only live once,treasure those we love, make friends not enemies and keep our family closer. And we will be at peace.
FISH

Offline Super zHero

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2014, 12:48:30 PM »
On the subject of wrist and foot straps, meron silang series resistor of something like 1meg for safety.  Para hindi makuryente.

Offline >>>^żżż^<<<

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2014, 12:55:33 PM »
1. Ok ba yan sir to damp static electricity with 1M value?

2. What about yung hawak ang meron leak from source line?

3. Paano naman yung loose sa gnd line na nakakonek sa electrical line grounding?

http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=52236.0 TF?
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=41860 ? ? ? DIY traffo Test Build Uli
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=33717  I2c / spi programmer
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=37150.0 Lcr esr makikigulo rin ba kayo ??? Test Build
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=29963.0 Esr collection na malamig
http://www.elab.ph/index.php?topic=25854.0 Basic C++ Programming Tutorials by Prof Asimo
We only live once,treasure those we love, make friends not enemies and keep our family closer. And we will be at peace.
FISH