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Clean out grounding design

Clean out grounding design
« on: September 16, 2014, 04:51:18 PM »
Guys...need some help...can i use bare copper inside metallic conduit for my clean out ground? is there any implication if i use metallic conduit?or just use pvc?thanks

Offline tony

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2014, 05:23:05 PM »
if that is a clean ground, why use bare? it should be green yellow wire up to the earthing rod,
at it is not carrying current pvc can be used....depende sa budget mo...
* you simulate a circuit because you know how it works and wants to tweak, not because you want to learn how that circuit works....simulations do not teach you to be circuit smart...it comes with experience....
*http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/191730-tonys-latest-traffo-diy-build-15.html#post4375385
*do not judge any amp by its schematics, drawing lang yon, look instead at the finished amp, it tells a lot about the amp and its builder.....
http://ronelex.com/bias-current-output-transistor-amplifier/156

Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2014, 05:42:18 PM »
i use bare copper kasi it will be from 15th floor down the basement where the clean ground rod will be installed. if i used insulated the size of wire is much bigger compare with a bare copper.

Offline tony

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2014, 07:10:50 PM »
 hmmm get ready to spend...
* you simulate a circuit because you know how it works and wants to tweak, not because you want to learn how that circuit works....simulations do not teach you to be circuit smart...it comes with experience....
*http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/191730-tonys-latest-traffo-diy-build-15.html#post4375385
*do not judge any amp by its schematics, drawing lang yon, look instead at the finished amp, it tells a lot about the amp and its builder.....
http://ronelex.com/bias-current-output-transistor-amplifier/156

Offline zirlou21

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2014, 09:25:22 PM »
 :)Hallo(.)(.)there...
 it is not advisable to extend the grounding wire at that lenght,as much as possible sa pinakamalapit na wet soil or ground ang the best connection for grounding to eliminate accumulation of resistane.egagamit ka pa ng copper at 15th floor magkakaroon na yan ng resistance..so hindi na yan clen gound.
...kung talagang malayo sa soil ground ang linya mo,gayahin mo na lang ang PLDT o Meralco grounding,gamit ka ng bare stranded wire with the right gauge to minimize resistance accumulation,
at ipaloob mo sa pvc conduit pababa sa ground rod connection.
...NO OFFENSE pls..usapang teknikal lang,walang personalan.....

Offline tony

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2014, 06:12:30 AM »
not if you are not using 70mm squared cable...TS wanted clean ground...
while it would be so much cheaper and easier to connect to the nearest metal,
but then it will no longer be clean ground, it will mix with dirty grounds...
* you simulate a circuit because you know how it works and wants to tweak, not because you want to learn how that circuit works....simulations do not teach you to be circuit smart...it comes with experience....
*http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/191730-tonys-latest-traffo-diy-build-15.html#post4375385
*do not judge any amp by its schematics, drawing lang yon, look instead at the finished amp, it tells a lot about the amp and its builder.....
http://ronelex.com/bias-current-output-transistor-amplifier/156

Offline robbietan

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2014, 12:02:11 PM »
a "clean ground" of an electrical/electronic equipment may suffer from ground loops if not bonded to the grounding of the power supply.

if a "clean ground" is needed, there should be no other connections from the bonding of the power supply to the equipment
apqi.ph

Offline tony

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2014, 12:13:38 PM »
a "clean ground" system is composed of earthing rods and cables to instrument equipment...

an "electrical ground"  system is also composed of earthing rods and cables to equipment...

so what is the difference?

the electrical earth connects the metal frames and chassis of electrical equipment to prevent
operators or users of equipment from getting shocked should insulation breakdowns or lightning strikes happen..
the clean earth otoh provides for a zero reference to instrumentation circuits requiring them...

eventually, both the clean earth grounding rods and the electrical or dirty earth grounds are both buried into the earth...
cables running from these rods should never be mixed up along the way...
* you simulate a circuit because you know how it works and wants to tweak, not because you want to learn how that circuit works....simulations do not teach you to be circuit smart...it comes with experience....
*http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/191730-tonys-latest-traffo-diy-build-15.html#post4375385
*do not judge any amp by its schematics, drawing lang yon, look instead at the finished amp, it tells a lot about the amp and its builder.....
http://ronelex.com/bias-current-output-transistor-amplifier/156

Offline Efren Cruzat II

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2014, 02:05:24 PM »
With that distance the wire of that length become a good rf antenna. Uncle bk would be happy to tap from it so he can listen to his favorite radio programs...
Di talaga maka move on, dahil sa inggit namimersonal na...;)

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Offline tony

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2014, 03:16:35 PM »
that is why in typical grounding installations such as power substations,
grounding wires are 240 mm squared cables, the bare wires
are formed into a matrix 1 x 1 meter apart and
exotehermically bonded/welded at the intersections...
these earthing cables are layed underneath the substations...


furthe links...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exothermic_welding
http://www.erico.com/products.asp?folderid=41
* you simulate a circuit because you know how it works and wants to tweak, not because you want to learn how that circuit works....simulations do not teach you to be circuit smart...it comes with experience....
*http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/191730-tonys-latest-traffo-diy-build-15.html#post4375385
*do not judge any amp by its schematics, drawing lang yon, look instead at the finished amp, it tells a lot about the amp and its builder.....
http://ronelex.com/bias-current-output-transistor-amplifier/156

Offline @badoy

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2014, 12:15:30 PM »
high rise commercial building should have separate grounding for data & electrical. Unless residential building that don't have data grounding provision.

bare copper for electrical and insulated copper for data.

saan kaya gagamitin ni TS?

Offline robbietan

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2014, 06:55:08 PM »
high rise commercial building should have separate grounding for data & electrical. Unless residential building that don't have data grounding provision.

bare copper for electrical and insulated copper for data.

saan kaya gagamitin ni TS?

separate grounding but bonded at the main transformer secondary
apqi.ph

Offline @badoy

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2014, 08:55:06 AM »
separate grounding but bonded at the main transformer secondary
nope. neutral lines and grounding system are bonded in transformer vault. but data grounding is not. Data Center's don't accept noisy grounding system and especially those connected to electrical system. These can harm your servers and data storage's.

Offline tony

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2014, 09:09:03 AM »
nope. neutral lines and grounding system are bonded in transformer vault. but data grounding is not. Data Center's don't accept noisy grounding system and especially those connected to electrical system. These can harm your servers and data storage's.

i wish i could post drawings and plans for grounding in the plants that i worked on...
yes, they are completely separate....but like i said, they meet at the ground where earth rods are buried for both dirty and clean earths in close proximity to one another....




* you simulate a circuit because you know how it works and wants to tweak, not because you want to learn how that circuit works....simulations do not teach you to be circuit smart...it comes with experience....
*http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/191730-tonys-latest-traffo-diy-build-15.html#post4375385
*do not judge any amp by its schematics, drawing lang yon, look instead at the finished amp, it tells a lot about the amp and its builder.....
http://ronelex.com/bias-current-output-transistor-amplifier/156

Offline tony

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2014, 09:13:40 AM »
separate grounding but bonded at the main transformer secondary

in a 5 wire system, 3 phases, neutral and ground, the neutral of the transformer is
bonded to earth rods, sometimes thru neutral earthing resistors....
but down the lines, the neutral and ground wires should never be interchanged
with one another, the ground wire and the neutral wires have different distinct roles to play...
* you simulate a circuit because you know how it works and wants to tweak, not because you want to learn how that circuit works....simulations do not teach you to be circuit smart...it comes with experience....
*http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/191730-tonys-latest-traffo-diy-build-15.html#post4375385
*do not judge any amp by its schematics, drawing lang yon, look instead at the finished amp, it tells a lot about the amp and its builder.....
http://ronelex.com/bias-current-output-transistor-amplifier/156

Offline robbietan

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2014, 09:59:59 AM »
nope. neutral lines and grounding system are bonded in transformer vault. but data grounding is not. Data Center's don't accept noisy grounding system and especially those connected to electrical system. These can harm your servers and data storage's.

unbonded systems tend to create ground loops which could damage systems. Have seen it in several customers where they did not bond the grounding of the electrical system to the data system. a lightning strike in the area burned all communication equipment but not the other parts of the computers

ref ANSI J-STD-607-A
apqi.ph

Offline tony

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2014, 10:19:44 AM »
they must have done something wrong in their installation....kaya nasunog...
i will have to see it with my own eyes to tell what was done wrong...
* you simulate a circuit because you know how it works and wants to tweak, not because you want to learn how that circuit works....simulations do not teach you to be circuit smart...it comes with experience....
*http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/191730-tonys-latest-traffo-diy-build-15.html#post4375385
*do not judge any amp by its schematics, drawing lang yon, look instead at the finished amp, it tells a lot about the amp and its builder.....
http://ronelex.com/bias-current-output-transistor-amplifier/156

Offline robbietan

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2014, 04:33:45 PM »
imagine several computers in remote places connected via a modem. a lightning strike at a nearby area and all the modems were busted. but only the modems, the computers are still functioning but are no longer communicating with each other.
apqi.ph

Offline tony

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2014, 07:02:51 PM »
again, unless i see it with my own eyes, whatever i say will only be speculation....
there is of course a reason, and grounding may not be the sole culprit...
* you simulate a circuit because you know how it works and wants to tweak, not because you want to learn how that circuit works....simulations do not teach you to be circuit smart...it comes with experience....
*http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/191730-tonys-latest-traffo-diy-build-15.html#post4375385
*do not judge any amp by its schematics, drawing lang yon, look instead at the finished amp, it tells a lot about the amp and its builder.....
http://ronelex.com/bias-current-output-transistor-amplifier/156

Offline @badoy

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Re: Clean out grounding design
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2014, 12:54:59 PM »
unbonded systems tend to create ground loops which could damage systems.

ref ANSI J-STD-607-A
How??

As far as I know in industry and facility design the data grounding and electrical grounding are separate, considering minimum distances to each other to prevent noise interference and harmonics.